Curse

JR · Jun 15, 2006, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberNigma

lol, this thread seems to be almost the opposite of the previous 'nerf the lts helm' threads. the only difference is the sides have switched as far as crying goes, with a few still in the middle not wanting anything nerfed..

I just thought that was funny and wanted to share it :-)

Except... look at the level of player that was calling for a nerf of the Lt.Helm. Ensign from iQ for example; who got the the first GWWC on the back of three warriors with Lt.Helms.

Then look at the level of player complaining in this thread...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicken Ftw

-Walks into topic-

-Has flashbacks of all fifteen thousand of the retarded "OMFG NERF TOUCH RANGERZ PLOZ!!!11" topics-

-Walks out of topic, shaking his head sadly-

Please, people. Learn to play a little before making topics.

Quoted. For. Truth.

Dravyn · Jun 15, 2006, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tainek

If you think the degen killed you at 26Dps you were wrong, there is no argument

The Reason it is a silly Idea to Counter with degen is very simple if you actually look at the facts:

Assuming you have 10 Pips of degen on you, Healing 10 pips for 10 seconds will keep you at the same health, so lets say you have 400 hp, your still on 400hp, in this situation its irrelevant

However, assuming you have 16 pips of degen, your still only taking 10 pips worth of damage, BUT, with 10 pips of regen added your still losing 6 pips of damage (16-10=6), so after 10 seconds, you are now 120 Hp Down (your regen prevented 80 damage)

Now Straight one pop heals are always effective vs degen, 200 points of straight healing is 200 points Regardless of the degen on you

your correct, vs just 10 pips regen is fine, but vs more straight heals are significantly more effective, theres just no argument

a warrior swinging his axe with no skills does more damage than 10 pips of degen, this is why it is belittled, but your correct, every single person on the forums who doesnt agree with you is a mesmer

www.guildwiki.org I suggest next time you look up the facts before you embarrass yourself

Ok...some have some difficulty comprehending situations. Firstly, I died in 17 seconds flat. Maybe 18 if my finger was a little slow. I doubt if my stopwatch lags seconds longer than scientifically measured seconds as they apply to real world physics..whatever.

Secondly, not everyone in pvp has a monk attached to their ass. Maybe in GvG you can always have a monk watching your back, sure. But there are other pvp venues in this game, of which GvG is only one. A flat heal such as Healing Signet is going to buy you *less* time at full cap degen than healing breeze will at +8 or even +7 regen. I don't understand why you knock regen other than to try to strengthen your assertion that redundant degen does not have an effect.

The reason I called everyone mesmers (obvious sarcasm, maybe?, as you could have derived from the *cough* thrown in there) because mesmers, of course, will vehemently defend their dot zerg as being "really just pressure and not effective in killing other players at all", much like Touch Rangers are the most rabid defenders of that build. Either way, without heals, dots will eat players alive, and in most situations outside of GvG, players very often have to rely on regen to counter degen. For all of you rabid fanbois that base everything off of GvG, stop posting your holier than thou "we're right end of story" crap. "it doesn't work this way...in gvg" "everything's countered...in gvg" "nothing's overpowered...in gvg"

I suppose if its so silly, you'd raise hell if a whammo tossed healing breeze on you to save your ass long enough for a monk to get a heal on you if you were dot zerged huh?

crimsonfilms · Jun 15, 2006, 08:23 PM // 20:23

First off - with max degen spammers it is stupid if you attempt to remove all the degen. It won't work. ANet knows this and it was designed this way. You remove key hexes like snare on warriors, migraine on offensive casters, and etc. Migraine on a boon monk is useless BTW. Easily removed.

YOU MANAGE HEX/Degen SPAMMERS or interupt or you kill the caster.

An Ele/Mo with Heal Party and Ether Prodigy can cover the ENTIRE team against 2 degen spammers.

There is nothing wrong with degen mechanics. In fact, it is considered by most inferior to straight damage from physical and ele damage.
Most degen builds still rely on 1 or 2 warriors to actually finish the target.

Regen is an idiotic way to counter degen. You are actually helping the hexer with regen. With WoH - i can spend 5 energy to heal for 180 or more HP. With Healing Breeze you can end up not healing at all for 10e.
Not to mention healing breeze is an enchanment which Mesmer and Necro can remove (for added damage to boot).

Manage the hexes.

Dzan · Jun 15, 2006, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dravyn

A flat heal such as Healing Signet is going to buy you *less* time at full cap degen than healing breeze will at +8 or even +7 regen.

You can Heal Sig twice in the same time as Healing Breeze once. 220 or so health from two Healing sigs is substantially better than 140 from a +7 healing Breeze.

Tainek · Jun 15, 2006, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dravyn

Ok...some have some difficulty comprehending situations. Firstly, I died in 17 seconds flat. Maybe 18 if my finger was a little slow. I doubt if my stopwatch lags seconds longer than scientifically measured seconds as they apply to real world physics..whatever.

Secondly, not everyone in pvp has a monk attached to their ass. Maybe in GvG you can always have a monk watching your back, sure. But there are other pvp venues in this game, of which GvG is only one. A flat heal such as Healing Signet is going to buy you *less* time at full cap degen than healing breeze will at +8 or even +7 regen. I don't understand why you knock regen other than to try to strengthen your assertion that redundant degen does not have an effect.

The reason I called everyone mesmers (obvious sarcasm, maybe?, as you could have derived from the *cough* thrown in there) because mesmers, of course, will vehemently defend their dot zerg as being "really just pressure and not effective in killing other players at all", much like Touch Rangers are the most rabid defenders of that build. Either way, without heals, dots will eat players alive, and in most situations outside of GvG, players very often have to rely on regen to counter degen. For all of you rabid fanbois that base everything off of GvG, stop posting your holier than thou "we're right end of story" crap. "it doesn't work this way...in gvg" "everything's countered...in gvg" "nothing's overpowered...in gvg"

I suppose if its so silly, you'd raise hell if a whammo tossed healing breeze on you to save your ass long enough for a monk to get a heal on you if you were dot zerged huh?

Your Right, some people really do have trouble comprehending the most simple of situations, Degen will NOT deal 26 DPS, it is not possible, no , nada, zip, zilch, nein, non. this has been tested and proven my countless hundreds of thousands of people, you think if it did a million and a half people (except your highness) would not have noticed? you are Wrong

If a Whammo threw Healing Breeze on me i'd be Pissed because:

A: it would Be Shattered in seconds, doing more harm than good
b: he would be wasting time and effort keeping me alive when it is the warriors job to be dealing damage

Without heals a Player under DoT is dead? No S* shirlock, i guess that makes DoT as overpowered as wanding, zomg no heals makes wanding overpowered!

and to "Zerg" is to rush, at 500hp its 25 seconds to kill me, zerging is an Aweful analogy here, the closest referance would be "Spiking"

DoT is exactly that, damage over time

The only Two Regen heals that ever count are trolls ungent and Healing breeze, Healing breeze puts a big grin on my face, as it heals 20 hp, then gets shattered for 100+ armor ignoring damage, GG

The other being Trolls ungent, but unlike the warrior, the ranger has no straight heal to fall back on, however, becuase of the rangers expertise, this costs only 2-3 energy, and cannot be ripped, making it an acceptable solution.

Why is Healing Signet better?

A: It costs no energy, assuming your only using HB, you'll still never get more than 3 salvos off, so after a little bit of time, your screwed again (2 pips of regen ftw)

B: it is much stronger in terms of healing, 130 point heal in two seconds for no cost? yes please

C: once your healed, you healed, it cant get drained or ripped of you you, basically screwing you big time

D: you can use it twice in the time for one breeze to take its course, 260 hp in 10 seconds, or 140-160 in 10 seconds, hmmm

And your right, there is more than just GvG and HA, but if you think for one second RA is supposed to be balanced, then youre not thinking clearly

Like it or not Guild Wars is a TEAM GAME, Deal with it

As for touch rangers, anyone with a clue knows they arnt overpowered, my Ritualist does more DPS than those jokes, but he wont get slaughtered if the opponent has more than two brain cells to peice together and realise he can run

The reason we dont fear degen is because we used our thinking caps, and we found ways to counter it, one day you might do the same, but its not looking likely

Dravyn · Jun 15, 2006, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Every single one of the above posts after mine is all based on a GvG mindset. Every single one. Go spew your crap in the GvG forum, because this isn't it, and again, GvG is not the entire pvp content of Guild Wars. Stop acting like it is. I could give a rats ass about GvG because I'm never in it. I pvp every night in TA, RA, but most often in Aspenwood, where touch rangers and degen zergs destroy *everything*. So no, don't expect me to bend over and accept your single minded GvG based viewpoints as "the way it is". Everything is not balanced outside of GvG. I'd love to get into GvG, but atm I cannot.

Btw, I died in 17 seconds. Does that bother you Tainek? I will admit its possible I could've taken an outside source of damage, but I didn't see it. The only reason I timed it in the first place is because I get dot stacked and die very fast almost constantly. But really, they're only good for pressure and are otherwise ineffective right? Good thing I don't use any kind of regen.

Quote:

Without heals a Player under DoT is dead? No S* shirlock, i guess that makes DoT as overpowered as wanding, zomg no heals makes wanding overpowered!

Its this kind of retardation that drives me away from you uppity elitist GvG rejects. I'd like to see you kill a warrior in under 30 seconds wanding you pompous ass.
Zerg is not "to rush" if you had any clue where Zerg comes from, its about stacking numbers, Starcraft, zerglings, and the horde that comes forthwith. I can "rush" with four people, its nowhere near a zerg. Dot Zerging would be stacking as many dots on another player as you could, not "rushing" them.

Quote:

As for touch rangers, anyone with a clue knows they arnt overpowered, my Ritualist does more DPS than those jokes, but he wont get slaughtered if the opponent has more than two brain cells to peice together and realise he can run

I'm sure your Rit does o' master of GW, but I guarantee you that a touch ranger will kill Target A faster than your Rit...holy shit, how did that happen. Rit has more sustained dps, not burst. Stop being a jackass. Anyone with a clue knows that Touch Rangers are overpowered everywhere except GvG and TA where people know to make specific R/N build killers. Melees can't cripple touchers and run, because of the beauty of plague touch. Learn, it love it. I'm very familiar with it.

Quote:

The reason we dont fear degen is because we used our thinking caps, and we found ways to counter it, one day you might do the same, but its not looking likely

Again with the GvG mindset. I wouldn't fear it either if I had a monk around all the time, but outside of HoH and GvG I don't...oh wait, those are the only two pvp arenas that matter, right? Get over yourself.

Dzan · Jun 15, 2006, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dravyn

I wouldn't fear it either if I had a monk around all the time, but outside of HoH and GvG I don't...oh wait, those are the only two pvp arenas that matter, right?

Yup, thats about right. Though I would add TA, which is a pretty good pvp environment.

Tainek · Jun 15, 2006, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dravyn

Every single one of the above posts after mine is all based on a GvG mindset. Every single one. Go spew your crap in the GvG forum, because this isn't it, and again, GvG is not the entire pvp content of Guild Wars. Stop acting like it is. I could give a rats ass about GvG because I'm never in it. I pvp every night in TA, RA, but most often in Aspenwood, where touch rangers and degen zergs destroy *everything*. So no, don't expect me to bend over and accept your single minded GvG based viewpoints as "the way it is". Everything is not balanced outside of GvG. I'd love to get into GvG, but atm I cannot.

Btw, I died in 17 seconds. Does that bother you Tainek? I will admit its possible I could've taken an outside source of damage, but I didn't see it. The only reason I timed it in the first place is because I get dot stacked and die very fast almost constantly. But really, they're only good for pressure and are otherwise ineffective right? Good thing I don't use any kind of regen.

Its this kind of retardation that drives me away from you uppity elitist GvG rejects. I'd like to see you kill a warrior in under 30 seconds wanding you pompous ass.
Zerg is not "to rush" if you had any clue where Zerg comes from, its about stacking numbers, Starcraft, zerglings, and the horde that comes forthwith. I can "rush" with four people, its nowhere near a zerg. Dot Zerging would be stacking as many dots on another player as you could, not "rushing" them.

I'm sure your Rit does o' master of GW, but I guarantee you that a touch ranger will kill Target A faster than your Rit...holy shit, how did that happen. Rit has more sustained dps, not burst. Stop being a jackass. Anyone with a clue knows that Touch Rangers are overpowered everywhere except GvG and TA where people know to make specific R/N build killers. Melees can't cripple touchers and run, because of the beauty of plague touch. Learn, it love it. I'm very familiar with it.

Again with the GvG mindset. I wouldn't fear it either if I had a monk around all the time, but outside of HoH and GvG I don't...oh wait, those are the only two pvp arenas that matter, right? Get over yourself.

I love how you call me an elitist GvGer, despite not knowing anything about my PvP habits, i have actually only GvG twice in the last month or so

Zerg is indeed about many units, but Zerg players dont pressure, they Spike with attacks, lots at once, aka a spike

And you saying you died in 17 seconds doesnt bother me at all, but before you claimed it was only degen, at least now your admitting a mistake

and as for wanding, you stated a player taking degen was dead without heals, i simply pointed out that degen isnt the only DoT, and that any player without healing will die taking any amount of steady damage

as for you timing it, do remember that a warrior does significantly more damage per second without any skills at all than degen does at max

Touch rangers make me chuckle no matter where i meet them, RA, TA, Or HA, Crip Shot+ Poison Arrow, Ethereal Burden + Conjure Phantasm , Ice Prizon + ice spear, it only takes two skills on almost any bar to annihilate a touch ranger, but this is not the place for a touch discussion, i'll happly move to a touch thread if you want to argue this

unienaule · Jun 15, 2006, 09:54 PM // 21:54

"touch rangers are overpowered"

Sorry, but seriously...... no. If they're so ubrl33t, why don't they dominate GvG and HoH? Oh right, that's because most of the people in places you mentioned aren't as good as people in GvG or HoH. Reason? It's very easy to get into the other places and do fairly well with a survivalist-mindset build where you kill people by yourself and stay alive yourself. But, against a coordinated team, a touch ranger is, well, just about never used for anything. It appears you're playing a warrior, from the comment, "melees can't cripple a ranger and run because of plague touch." Well guess what. In some situations, certain specific builds totally dominate other totally specific builds, and you even admitted to it, by specifying melees. Bow rangers can, though!

Basically, Tainek, you're stating this:

In certain situations, certain builds will lose to certain other builds in 1v1, unless you bring a counter. Specifically, Touch rangers > melee in 1v1. Oh yeah, and it helps if you're organized and have a decent party.

My reaction:
Too bad 1v1 doesn't matter, and Welcome to Guild Wars.

Tainek · Jun 15, 2006, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by unienaule

"touch rangers are overpowered"

Sorry, but seriously...... no. If they're so ubrl33t, why don't they dominate GvG and HoH? Oh right, that's because most of the people in places you mentioned aren't as good as people in GvG or HoH. Reason? It's very easy to get into the other places and do fairly well with a survivalist-mindset build where you kill people by yourself and stay alive yourself. But, against a coordinated team, a touch ranger is, well, just about never used for anything. It appears you're playing a warrior, from the comment, "melees can't cripple a ranger and run because of plague touch." Well guess what. In some situations, certain specific builds totally dominate other totally specific builds, and you even admitted to it, by specifying melees. Bow rangers can, though!

Basically, Tainek, you're stating this:

In certain situations, certain builds will lose to certain other builds in 1v1, unless you bring a counter. Specifically, Touch rangers > melee in 1v1. Oh yeah, and it helps if you're organized and have a decent party.

My reaction:
Too bad 1v1 doesn't matter, and Welcome to Guild Wars.

Hit the nail on the head there

Spazzer · Jun 15, 2006, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irongate

There are so many degen skills that when you walk into battle you are lucky if you can even reach the other party before you (or they) are dead!

There are so many degen skills...?

Degen caps at 10 pips. That's 20 dps. Just healsig it and let the overflow waste away in limbo.

Mimi Miyagi · Jun 15, 2006, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tainek

E/Mo With Heal Party and Ether Renewal= ggkthxbye Degen

And Heal Party spammers can be shut down with one distracting shot ggkthxbye gvg team.

Welcome to the metagame.

Degen is a tool, just like any other tool in a gvg team's arsenal.

Fyre Brand · Jun 15, 2006, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irongate

What is it with Guild Wars now?

The whole PvP thing has gone to crap. There are so many degen skills that when you walk into battle you are lucky if you can even reach the other party before you (or they) are dead! Is that what PvP is meant to be all about? Who can cast degen the fastest! What a dumb game!

What happened to using skills in fighting, better attacks at the rear, aiming attacks, combinations etc... At least before factions degen worked in harmony with fighting. There are so many degen skills now and they are so strong that this is all PvP has become, lots of degen skills, what fun.

Start of game --> cast degen, cast degen, cast degen, cast degen, win/lose.

Boring!!! C'mon Anet, is this really how you intended GW to be played?

I always love threads made by people who've gotten their asses handed to them on a platter and have no idea about countering or dealing with a certain type of skill set. Please don't take your frustration out on people because you aren't patient enough to figure it out or learn from other people.

byteme! · Jun 15, 2006, 11:32 PM // 23:32

OP should find a game more suited for his mental capacity since he can't come up with ways to counter degen.

Criminally Sane · Jun 16, 2006, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

IMO, RA should be removed because its so enraging that it could cause mental illnesses.

/signed. Maybe if there were no RA, people'd have to actually use builds that work, and wouldn't bitch about being owned by some nub with a gimmick build that only works in chaos (RA). Better teamwork and better builds being used, autowin.

Nah, people in general are stupid, they'd find something new to complain about. Like the fact that some chars have longer names than others, which take slightly more effort to read. Ohes noes. Sigh...

Viruzzz · Jun 16, 2006, 12:21 AM // 00:21

a character with no Superior or major runes has 480 Health. with -10 degen (max) it takes a half minute to die (way longer if you heal yourself at all)
you are obviously doing something wrong if you can't reach the enemy before you die from degen. especially since they have to be in casting range to make you bleed, poisoned, dieseased, or cast a hex on you and it doesn't even take 2 seconds to close that distance at running speed.

heavyduty · Jun 16, 2006, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Speaking for RA, problem is that it's too easy to degen and cripple/slow warriors essentially nulling them throughout the whole ordeal. It's very easy for seasoned players to counter this but for new people trying to pvp it's a pretty strong motivation killer.

Most newbies I know starting in RA pvp simply delete their warrior toons and create a mesmer or necro to do the same that kills them.

Casters have many skills that can also make a warrior pretty much useless even if they're slashing away right in front of them blind/distortion etc. Even a few points for soothing or visage will deny the warrior throughout the match.

Warriors have no realistic spammable skill that can null hexes and conditions easily so in areas like RA or random party stuff, getting a competant monk is like winning the lottery. I compromised on warrior skills several times and took condition and hex removal for my warrior. As soon as I take something off, it is put back in an instant. All I did was kill my energy and put myself in a more vulnerable position than at first. I can imagine this to be overwhelming to a newbie.

One thing is, they need to buff warriors cunning or beserkers stance perhaps by lowering the ridiculous recharge on them compared to devastating caster spells SS, failure etc.

Bottom line is, when I'm with friends playing a warrior is fun. For random party stuff, it is pretty difficult and I often feel like a useless pawn among the casters.

Irongate · Jun 16, 2006, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fyre Brand

I always love threads made by people who've gotten their asses handed to them on a platter and have no idea about countering or dealing with a certain type of skill set. Please don't take your frustration out on people because you aren't patient enough to figure it out or learn from other people.

Did you even read my post or just assume that it was one of those threads? You know what they say about assuming!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by byteme!

OP should find a game more suited for his mental capacity since he can't come up with ways to counter degen.

Ditto

Dark Saga · Jun 16, 2006, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by heavyduty

Speaking for RA, problem is that it's too easy to degen and cripple/slow warriors essentially nulling them throughout the whole ordeal. It's very easy for seasoned players to counter this but for new people trying to pvp it's a pretty strong motivation killer.

Most newbies I know starting in RA pvp simply delete their warrior toons and create a mesmer or necro to do the same that kills them.

Casters have many skills that can also make a warrior pretty much useless even if they're slashing away right in front of them blind/distortion etc. Even a few points for soothing or visage will deny the warrior throughout the match.

Warriors have no realistic spammable skill that can null hexes and conditions easily so in areas like RA or random party stuff, getting a competant monk is like winning the lottery. I compromised on warrior skills several times and took condition and hex removal for my warrior. As soon as I take something off, it is put back in an instant. All I did was kill my energy and put myself in a more vulnerable position than at first. I can imagine this to be overwhelming to a newbie.

One thing is, they need to buff warriors cunning or beserkers stance perhaps by lowering the ridiculous recharge on them compared to devastating caster spells SS, failure etc.

Bottom line is, when I'm with friends playing a warrior is fun. For random party stuff, it is pretty difficult and I often feel like a useless pawn among the casters.

Seems like a good way to look at it. Warriors are the easiest target to shutdown, on the other hand, thoose shutdowns are probably the easiest to counter... with a monk. Warriors need to be easily shut down though as they have the best damage over a prolonged time and can outdamage almost any caster pretty fast unless they are - shutdown. Degen is fine as it is - against characters with low self heals it is a killer weapon, against dedicated healers it doesn't really do much at all. As others have mentioned, it is one of the tools you can use, good in some situations, worse in others.

Against warriors, degen is very good, at least if they are not backed up by a monk and, as others also have mentioned, some builds are alot more powerfull against others. A degen necro will probably get a warrior, the warrior will probably get an airspiker (for the sake of the argument, no blinding flashes :P) and the airspiker will get the necro. It is possible that degen is stronger in RA than other places, I often run degen builds there and they often work very fine.

Manic Smile · Jun 16, 2006, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamikazeChicken

Pfft! There's bigger fish to fry than degen. Armor is overpowered, and everyone should be naked in GvG!

/end sarcasm

d00d! there should be naked guild ladders...where the whole team fights nude...